Li Zhenhua
Li Zhenhua, Independent curator, artist, producer.
Photographer: Yan Lei
In October, Li Zhenhua’s residency project Writing/Cooking was completed at Points Center for Contemporary Art and ended with an invited meal by and a dialogue with the artist. All the ingredients were taken from the local area. For example, after arriving in Jinxi in the first day go in search of a pumpkin, which would go through a process of display, being photographed, made into a culinary dish, shared, are made into a food, shared, dispelled, and after the entity has disappeared, it appears at last in the remaining photographic works and shared memories.
At the same time, the cyanotype method is used to preserve traces of daily life in Jinxi. The artist mentioned in the interview: “Cooking is a type of self-cultivation, and writing is part of my work.” During the residency, Li Zhenhua took a given private space and made it into a public space, transforming the functional concept of space, pointing out questions of the privacy and publicness of spaces.
“We are more like wandering monks, like preachers.”
Points
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Li Zhenhua
Cooking has always been in your creations. Are there any special settings for the selection of ingredients and the presentation of the dishes every day? Is there any difference in the choice of dishes when you have a dinner with friends?
There is no difference, mainly to go out and find the most interesting ingredients in the local area. For example, this morning I went out and bought stinky tofu and oil blocks (also known as radish cake), but yesterday bought this, it may be imported grapefruit, I think China may not have such pink pomelo, even the skin of it is pink. This is what you can find locally, no matter what kind of material it is, it carries a history that it contains. It's hard for me to put it into a so-called tradition, or some sort of customary local language, because today's local language is also alienated, it is both local and possibly a global transport or species. For me, it should be attributed to a part of the reality we face today.
This project has chosen Points Center for Contemporary Art in Jinxi. Is there anything special about it?
I think you must first know the history of Jinxi. Jinxi was a tomb center of the Southern Song Dynasty, more than 800 years ago. This place has been called “Chen’s Water Tomb.” So I think that for me, Jinxi ancient town may be more closely related to a historical event.
In fact, I think Jinxi's most important thing is its architecture. It is a legacy of the era. From the Southern Song Dynasty to the Ming Dynasty to the Qing Dynasty, architecture has been left behind. And Points has antique buildings, though it is closer to the type of Nordic architecture I understand in terms of internal structure, but in terms of external structure, it is still chasing a folk custom, the so-called floating house style of folk customs in Jiangsu and Zhejiang. I hope that in this respect, I will accept it as I said, because it is a part of our present. I don’t want to say that it’s good old, and I don’t want to say that it’s good now, but I think you live in such a staggered way. In reality, it may be the best life of your life. So, Jinxi, Points, and the people around you here may be the best environment you can get.
In addition, it is the thing that a residency wants to complete. I always have a wish. This wish has nothing to do with Jinxi. Just like many people’s wishes have little to do with his birthplace or future. It is more like a dream that you feel has not been completed. For example, one of my little dreams is to do cyanotype. In fact, the cyanotype method is also a manual technique from the end of the 19th century. I have always liked the blue texture and photocopying method, so I think Jinxi may be quite suitable because it has broad water surfaces and plenty of sunshine. I was going to do cyanotype, but I didn't want to print the photos during the process, because the usual way is to transfer your photos using the cyanotype chemistry, but for me this thing doesn’t seem to matter, I want to use it to preserve traces of Jinxi's daily life.
What is the definition for you of the project name Writing/Cooking?
I think that all working titles have very large gaps with reality, and I have always been skeptical of naming a project before completion. For example, are whatever thoughts I had before coming here consistent with the reality of actually being here? So Writing/Cooking is, in fact, what I want to say is my daily state.
Maybe in this environment, or in any environment, my work is like this. Cooking is a kind of self-cultivation, writing is a part of my work, although it may have a kind of performance and mixed reality like in the theater, but is this important? Isn’t everyone like this today? You play another person on the Internet, you are still playing in the real world, because everything you do is performed; is there a real existence? I think this may be a very interesting thing in my work. How do you understand this kind of existence? Traditionally, it is to live for others. I think that now I am living 100% for others, and then this is quite okay, because this also allows you to maximize the value of relationships in this community, and especially with position of the person in a new relationship.
In the summer of 2017, your solo exhibition mentioned, “I imagine a place to receive others, a space for the guests, and then find the right moment from this scale and relationship.” During your residency, you also invited a lot of different friends. Is this project the concept from the previous work?
Always, all the people here are my guests. I am trying to transform this space. Just like the performance theory I just mentioned, when I become this performer, my space changes with me. So, just like Japanese artist Masanori said yesterday, “You moved the TV here. When the chair moved here, it became your living space.” I said, “Yes, because I didn’t move the TV out; if I move the TV out, I can change this living space, I can change it to my own.” I’ve always very much liked that Spanish proverb — “My house is your house.”
In my work, if my home is your home, then your home is also my home, so how do you bring this living space in — for example, create a kitchen in the toilet; for example, how to create a private space from what should be a public space. How do you turn my private space into a public space. You can enter what is now my private space, when visiting, I have actually transformed that space. That is, moving the big bed away, shifting the small bed, with all of these you can of course say it is a theater placement, but for me, this is also part of feng shui, making this space easier to use. I think the interesting part of feng shui is that it makes you comfortable. It is constantly shifting and arranging the space, actually letting the space have no unhygienic dead corners. That is, you can try to always clean this space, and this is also a part of modern life that I understand.
As far as possible, try to let me be in a simple space. Although I have a lot of things, I think this allows me think better about how to simplify it, but if you don't have these, it's simple. Conciseness is that you are thinking about the rationality of each object. For example, how do we think about the problem of garbage disposal? You see this kind of tourist in Jinxi ancient town, this kind of chaotic garbage situation. When tourists throw things in the lake and throw things on the streets, will you feel that you can do something for this situation? There are also little wild cats and little wild dogs here, so you will also think: what can you leave them with? For example, if you see a little wild dog in the morning, you might see it basking in front of a shop. At that time, you feel very warm. At night, you hear them screaming. What I want to say is that all of this is how to producing similar feeling with everything here. This is very important.
You are an artist and a curator — regarding the presentation of works in spaces, because of the curator's identity, will there be other different perspectives?
This kind of artistic creation is precisely a supplement to my curatorial work, that is, how to think about curating, especially in daily life. I find some kind of hands-on textures, because curators are often not very handy, instead more of the type to point out to others. So for me, can another kind of knowledge really direct others? If the curatorial knowledge is only at the level of knowledge or mental activity, can it really let others understand why this is? Therefore, I feel that body perception and brain activity are the same, and must be combined into one, that is, the integration of mind and language in Chinese.
At work, I try to live in these places, for example, everything in my daily life, there is a brain activity in it, seemingly random selection, and some things that are intentional, is there really such a big difference? If you are a modern person, you must think about anything in the present. All these things, everything in the world, when you blink, it is a huge multiple choice question. Then I don’t have the dilemma of this choice, so I should choose what I think is the best, then this is my own. In choosing this project, I hope it will present the best.
At work, I think it has been built into the best gene, but this best gene does not mean that I give someone a great exhibition. I don't think it matters. This is not for a residency institution to do. A residency organization can do exactly what is necessary to connect people and people, and then let them relax their thoughts and knowledge, and realize something here. For example, in my communication with Japanese artists, on the first day I asked him, “Where do you want to do the exhibition?” He said, “I want to do the exhibition in the exhibition hall.” Then I said, “Is this not very far? Our exhibition is here.” Your exhibition space should be your place of residence, because an artist's open exhibition is always more powerful — when he can provide the whole process of his daily life and creation, this is precisely the root of its power, not that I am doing another performance across a level of space. For whom to see do I play?
Will the word “fun” be the focus of your creation or curation?
Not exactly, but I feel that if an exhibition can't be exciting and interesting, then the exhibition itself has no value. So, in reverse, if an audience can't get some kind of spiritual heart in the exhibition, there is no value in coming. Therefore, today's exhibition requirements are higher. Unlike past display relationships, people need to look up a knowledge structure and concrete objects that you don't know. Today, I don't think there is such a problem. Everything can be obtained through google. You will know his clues, the times, and the background identity. Then what do you want, I think today's situation is exactly what you want to see, and how to look at it, and what is your response, that is, people must complete their interaction in the space, then it makes sense.
During your residency, you gave a lecture at PCCA on non-profit organizations. Through this residency, what do you think of the ideas and suggestions for Points Center for Contemporary Art?
I think that Points should probably think about what kind of institution to build, because an institution can be very institutionalized, but I don’t think it is interesting. Then another institution is more free and imperfect, but it is gradually in the process of perfection but with more humanity and human feelings. I think this is important, because today there is no shortage of institutions; all the institutions that you know are illusory, and I say that they have a false name, because in institutions, they are not too concerned about people. When the people inside are not important, then I often doubt the purpose of this institution at this time. If an institution is serving people, it should first take care of the internal workers. Where are they located? How do they communicate with others? I think this is more important.
Of course, this may be contrary to the current institutional situation, but it is not contradictory. Because of the current system, this kind of coasting through the gaps has already been driving for a long time, and I think this dilemma is already very obvious. For example, how do you choose the artist you are looking for, and through what? If through a plan, I feel that this plan is very unreliable. In addition, through what, through some paper you have a few exchanges, I feel that all of these have some inevitable dilemmas, so Points, if it is for me to say, if if they can really take care of some of this work afterwards, I think you should not focus on creation of this specific exhibition, and so should focus on daily communication with people, such as this person, what is going on with him? Where is he from in Japan? Where does he come from in China? Where does he come from in Europe? Why? What is his purpose? What is he going to accomplish? For example, the purpose of some people is actually very simple, they just want to do an exhibition. Some people just want to drift along for a period. So I think you need to figure this out clearly.
And then as far as I can say, there is no good or bad in these situations. There is only the logic of his thinking and purpose, then when you’ve clearly figured out the logic of his thinking and purpose, this is the quality of your residency — that is, the value of his residency is like this, and then use this value to ask what is happening in the space we provide? This is important: not to say that the space I have provided has always been for a famous artist, a good artist, but rather do I think this kind of thing is interesting? Besides, if it is for famousness, it does not necessarily have to be an artist; you may choose a Hollywood star, is this not better? So since you are talking about art, since we are talking about art and artistry, then we should grasp well the fleetingness of art and artistry.
As for previous works, there have been many food-based creations in the past. What are the background reasons for choosing these items?
There is no reason behind it, just that you think a certain material cannot be made into sculpture, so as a sculpture, let it appear. What you think can't be preserved, let it appear. I think this is a big challenge for the whole art system from rendering to inherent logic. The challenge, because the whole logic is that we have to do something called long-lasting, and then today I think it should be changed, what is for a long time? How do you understand this for a long time? How long does it take? For example, Mao Zedong said: “Ten thousand years is too long, just struggle towards dusk.” I think that he is right, because it is only in the midst of the breath of your life, should you grasp it. So, at what history do you look, at what future do you look? If you are not good at this breath today, history may not be valid for you, and there will be no future.
Can you recommend a few books?
All the books I recommend are here. All the books you see have given to me by others, and some that I’ve brought myself. For example, like Zhang Beihai’s Hidden Man, Yohji Yamamoto’s My Dear Bomb, and Shen Wei, Fan Bo, Xu Jiang, the books of these artists are all here.
So for me it is not recommending a book, nor reading one book.
I was recently listening to a program in which Liang Wendao said reading the same things at the same time, the most powerful person is reading 25 books at the same time, so this is a very good feedback for me, because I have been reading a lot of things at the same time. So this is, I started to find a feeling that there is a kind of comrade, that is to say, there are many people that are like this, so it is very interesting. I will read all these books once, because many books are read once and forgotten, and ultimately, it's a bit like sifting gold. That is, you should find the flash in it. It doesn't mean to deliberate on which book is done well, which book is not done well, it doesn't matter; with anything someone else has wanted to do, there must be a flash in it.
Which kind of artist do you most admire?
The artists I admire are many. I think it the main point is in which direction do you want to see an artist's work going, so the artists I admire are the artists involved in this so-called post-aesthetics movement. Not just a person but a bunch of similar work techniques. These artists are pursuing what I just said. The things in my work are very similar to this fleeting art. There is an English term here, the word “informal art,” which is a topic that many people discuss in relationship to post-aesthetics, I feel that it’s changed the art situation today.
For example, a one-minute sculpture?
Not exactly, a one-minute sculpture is actually part of participatory art or performance type, and although it is not exactly this, it can also be included, so sometimes you say what level of these arts has it reached? When is its form, when it is discussed, there is no way to escape this, this requires more accumulation and practice, it’s best to be clear about what thing you actually want? For example, there is still a gap between the artistic situation in China and the prevailing mainstream of the winners. You must be clear yourself, a bit like you are a professional worker, you must find the nature of his work, of course you also have the right to choose what you do.
With a living state of making different kinds of food everyday, if I often go to different places, will it also be like this?
How to say? This is only a part of the state of life — if a person perhaps often does not do it, because I think food should be shared with everyone. If you are just one person, there’s no need to be so tired, though also, cooking itself is a type of rest for me. So you say that I don't want to be tired on the one hand, and on the other hand, I feel that this is a break. This is a paradox of existence, it definitely is. So let's say that anyone exists, the paradox and predicament of his own existence, then how do you solve it, that is, where is the degree of pleasure? You said that you are happy today, just do something, do it yourself, even if you make yourself ten dishes, you can eat it slowly or dump it out. This pleasure is here, then you choose to go outside to eat some noodles at grandmother’s house, eat some wontons, whatever, the situation’s also like this. I don't think there is a scope for regulation, for example, I have to do it. Not necessarily.
So my curatorial work is the same, residency is also like this, must you know where your border is? Then you must also provoke the border, because these are all things that you have to think as an artist, that is, a part of your speculation. That is, you can't think that, for example, a place called an art museum, it is an art museum, really? Or is a famous curator really a famous curator? Where is the famousness? Then the museum that has a big system that seems to be self-identifying or automatically recognizing, is that really true? Is it really good for someone else to say good things? Is it true that a previously established concepts are true? A lot of these things are things you have to experience. Sometimes you don't have to see it. You say, “Oh, I saw it, that's it.” No, maybe the timing you saw it in was wrong. So the situation you see is not right. I think that the dilemma of modern society or contemporary people is that you have to rethink all the existing concepts every day. This is really true.
So sometimes it will be seen as virtual.
It’s not that you are imaginary, as your brain is always moving. Others tell you that this is a contemporary art exhibition, you just have to think where is the contemporary? What is contemporary, except that he is a contemporary artist, divided according to a logic of time that we say, any existing one can be said to be contemporary. However, it is really something in contemporary-ness or contemporary logic. Sometimes, not necessarily, also is art really art? Many people do crafts, and many people do things that look like contemporary art. Many people are, because you will find out as soon as you discuss it at depth, this person does not have so much understanding of his works, lacks certain sentiments.
So sometimes, I think this may be a dilemma of today's professional art. When many people can only do professional art, this dilemma will become particularly obvious. While pursuing artistic purity, he must consider the market relationship, that is, how he exists in the market. The paradox of existence is consistent with the paradox I just mentioned, but it may be bigger. On the one hand, you have to pursue pure art. On the other hand, you have to know who wants to buy, and the items that you produce for different spaces, different scales, different media, sometimes you can actually give sympathetic consideration to the arts worker, but more often you need to stimulate him, rather irritatingly, provocatively, you ask these people, what is the thing you are doing? Why do you want to do this?
I have heard you from very early on, but I don’t know you yourself, we have met several times, but it may not have left a deep impression. Although we have been together for just a short time, I think you are a wise person.
The wise person will not sit here, the wise person is unseen by others, that’s the wise person. The things I am thinking about, I am saying them in this way, it is not something that wise people do. It is more like chatting with Jiang Jun yesterday. We are more like wandering monks, like preachers, but preaching is not exactly me wanting you to go believe. We are perfected through such discussions, our mutual perception of this world, and this is just because we are not wise enough, wise people; great wisdom needs not be spoken.
The word preacher is particularly good.
You also are. We just say that we met because you are also walking on this road, assuming we are all monks, we are all walking on some paths, then meet in some places, then you will reach the temple not, or whether or not there is this temple is not important.